tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27612445.post8143330739236398416..comments2024-02-22T22:14:28.796-06:00Comments on The Wild Reed: It’s a ScandalMichael J. Baylyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03087458490602152648noreply@blogger.comBlogger24125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27612445.post-20073190216043919882010-10-03T02:54:15.220-05:002010-10-03T02:54:15.220-05:00I agree that same-sex marriage should be frowned u...I agree that same-sex marriage should be frowned upon, but I don't see why the Church should mandate secular law when it comes to it. The church is an entity onto its own and its moral values are for people to come into, not to be forced upon them.David Kleckerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02632498275708836918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27612445.post-32923463043576476512010-09-24T06:59:39.366-05:002010-09-24T06:59:39.366-05:00Ray, I've learned quite a bit from watching th...Ray, I've learned quite a bit from watching the Obama administration. We have a corporate oligarchy not a democracy, so of course, Obamba followed Bush's lead and bailed out Wall Street. The Repubs did their part superbly and the crumbs the Dems managed to throw from the corporate table,--a bit of health care reform, the Repubs will attempt to take back right along with the little bit of banking reform the Dems managed to enact.<br /><br />In the meantime someone or someone's are colluding with the Church to keep us all focused on the 'intrinsically disordered' and there for 'demonic gays'. We're all being used Ray, even you.colkochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27612445.post-9291586570900912142010-09-24T00:09:11.084-05:002010-09-24T00:09:11.084-05:00Thank you, Richard, for sharing so honestly the in...Thank you, Richard, for sharing so honestly the insights you've gained from your journey.<br /><br />Peace,<br /><br />MichaelMichael J. Baylyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03087458490602152648noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27612445.post-31094506192681892010-09-23T23:31:39.904-05:002010-09-23T23:31:39.904-05:00As to my other comment on taking Sacred Scripture ...As to my other comment on taking Sacred Scripture out of context, I stand with it. The passages on marriage in the Gospels are often taken as a "proof text" that Jesus supported only opposite gender relationships. The argument is based on silence, which is generally a poor hermeneutic to base a doctrine on. <br /><br />There is plenty of room to debate this issue--what there is not room for, in my very humble opinion, is to shut down such dialogue and Archbishop N has done so, even before this whole situation arose. In fairness to him he has been personally supportive to me during the time I was Roman rite and was not rocking the boat. But this boat needs rocking, sisters and bros. I have already paid a fairly big cost in making some painful stands just this week. But my integrity level has grown rather than otherwise. I would do it again.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27612445.post-35225649879175262112010-09-23T23:25:44.489-05:002010-09-23T23:25:44.489-05:00Terry--I do not wish to turn this into a personal ...Terry--I do not wish to turn this into a personal argument with you--it isn't. You do not know me at all, so for you to assume you know whether my faith walk has been "stable" or not would be up to my spiritual director, not you. For 5 years I have been pretty much a daily Mass attendee, gone to Reconciliation at least every 2 weeks, sponsored 2 RCIA candidates, was an Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion in two parishes, and completed Harry J Flynn Catechetical Institute (I believe you were in that class too, not sure), all in my 50s with several major health issues and while working 2 jobs. I have been celibate for 10 years and am still not looking for a partner. My prayer life remains very strong, far from perfect by any means, but is consistent daily. My very honest disagreements with the Archdiocese are breaking my heart, very honestly. I WANT the Church to be right, but my personal convictions tell me otherwise, and that they are missing it on this and a number of other issues. I am not "trying Anglicanism" either. I have studied, just as you have, and in my digging have found huge contradictions between the teachings of the Church today and throughout Church history. Something is wrong here when she claims to have "never erred in faith and morals." It is simply not correct. I am one of the most stable people I know, very honestly. That is not meant haughtily, just the opposite in fact. But you know absolutely nothing about me or my journey and your assumptions about my stablity are not correct, friend.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27612445.post-58011278172776563362010-09-23T22:58:25.149-05:002010-09-23T22:58:25.149-05:00Ray said: "You have made up your minds and ke...Ray said: "You have made up your minds and keep repeating the same arguments over and over, based on your beliefs, not on any facts."<br /><br />Mmm . . . sounds like you're finally coming around to seeing the problem with the clerical leadership's <a href="http://thewildreed.blogspot.com/2008/10/stop-in-name-of-discriminatory-ideology.html" rel="nofollow">sexual theology</a>!<br /><br />Peace,<br /><br />MichaelMichael J. Baylyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03087458490602152648noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27612445.post-87398864539819015452010-09-23T22:54:30.119-05:002010-09-23T22:54:30.119-05:00Ray,
You have no idea how exactly this campaign ...Ray, <br /><br />You have no idea how exactly this campaign of the bishops was funded. None of us do. That's the problem. <br /><br />Regardless, it was a waste of money and a scandalous example of misplaced priorities. <br /><br />And as for you fixation on Matt. 19: 3-6, I'd take your reference to this verse seriously when the clerical leadership of the Church produces and distributes a DVD calling for a constitutional amendment that outlaws divorce.<br /><br />Peace,<br /><br />MichaelMichael J. Baylyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03087458490602152648noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27612445.post-24982877873415002142010-09-23T22:48:48.491-05:002010-09-23T22:48:48.491-05:00Terry, what do you mean by "stable"? Fro...Terry, what do you mean by "stable"? From some of the things I've read on your blog, I'm not sure if you're in a position to dismiss someone else's faith journey in this way. It seems you've had your share of ups and downs - and aren't you the better for it? Isn't that often how we grow and change for the better?<br /><br />Also, when gay people and their allies make donations they're doing so to reduce discrimination and expand the circle of inclusion. That sounds very much aligned with Gospel values to me. The MN bishops' misguided campaign against marriage equality does the opposite. It seeks to enshrine discrimination into the MN Constitution and exclude a certain group of people. That to me is a betrayal of the Catholic way of being in the world, a way that should always be open and responsive to the presence of God in and through human life - in all its wondrous diversity.<br /><br />Peace,<br /><br />MichaelMichael J. Baylyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03087458490602152648noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27612445.post-41844106342587480462010-09-23T21:21:30.412-05:002010-09-23T21:21:30.412-05:00colkoch
Please read. The archdiocese didn't ...colkoch<br /><br />Please read. The archdiocese didn't get the money. The Knights of Columbus didn't get the money. They came up with the idea and an anonymous donor provided the funding.<br /><br />Why didn't the president that you voted for "support existing families through tough economic times" rather than banks and General Motors?<br /><br />It is not fun or informative arguing with you people. You really don't know what you are talking about. You have made up your minds and keep repeating the same arguments over and over, based on your beliefs, not on any facts.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08332138030182107580noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27612445.post-20326558635921919302010-09-23T21:03:01.654-05:002010-09-23T21:03:01.654-05:00Mary Hess:
That's a great idea. It will be i...Mary Hess:<br /><br />That's a great idea. It will be interesting to see just how many homosexuals are regular Mass attendees.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08332138030182107580noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27612445.post-87780291180085072502010-09-23T21:00:38.016-05:002010-09-23T21:00:38.016-05:00You guys just don't understand, do you?
Someb...You guys just don't understand, do you?<br /><br />Somebody unknown paid for the project and did not give the money to the archdiocese. Capisce?<br /><br />Catholic donors learned from the experience of donors supporting the Proposition 8 referendum in California that if they make their names public that the homosexual collective will be mobilized to make all kinds of efforts to destroy their jobs, businesses, etc.<br /><br />You surely know that story, don't you.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08332138030182107580noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27612445.post-38717288086093043562010-09-23T20:59:11.672-05:002010-09-23T20:59:11.672-05:00Richard, with all due respect your faith journey h...Richard, with all due respect your faith journey hasn't been all that stable - no surprise you are trying Anglicanism now.<br /><br />Michael - the DVD expense was paid for by a donor - so what? The expense is nothing in comparison with what certain wealthy gay activists pour into pro-gay marriage and gay rights political campaigns across the country. Why are gays protesting Obama these days? Could it be they feel betrayed and that their political contributions were misused? Don't ask - just tell.Terry Nelsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09819523933502820341noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27612445.post-78233942195531080452010-09-23T20:31:40.195-05:002010-09-23T20:31:40.195-05:00Richardrev:
What don't you understand about &...Richardrev:<br /><br />What don't you understand about "'made them male and female,' 5 and said, 'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'?"<br /><br />The Gospels were not intended to be a Wikipedia on homosexual activities.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08332138030182107580noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27612445.post-34446485538122940322010-09-23T20:26:41.701-05:002010-09-23T20:26:41.701-05:00Linda: Please go over Matthew 19:3-6
Check out t...Linda: Please go over Matthew 19:3-6<br /><br />Check out the parts about "male and female." That's why it was funded.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08332138030182107580noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27612445.post-35662127058539712452010-09-23T20:23:04.389-05:002010-09-23T20:23:04.389-05:00It's my understand that the project started in...It's my understand that the project started in New Jersey with the Knights of Columbus and I assumed that that's where the fund raising began.<br /><br />Since the Archbishop said he doesn't know anything about it I would imagine that he just provided them with the size of the archdiocesan mailing list and recorded his personal message digitally so that the local mailing could be personalized.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08332138030182107580noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27612445.post-45750356297145587712010-09-23T10:12:59.900-05:002010-09-23T10:12:59.900-05:00The better question is why didn't the archdioc...The better question is why didn't the archdiocese and the KofC use this money for charitable causes that actually support existing families through tough economic times--one of the leading causes of the break up of families.<br /><br />How much hypocrisy are Catholics supposed to put up with?colkochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27612445.post-54706622577527675382010-09-23T07:53:12.293-05:002010-09-23T07:53:12.293-05:00I tried to leave this at the CCCR site, but the ca...I tried to leave this at the CCCR site, but the captcha for the email is broken! Anyway, I don't know if you could get this out to people, but I really like this suggestion for a response to the dvds:<br /><br />http://eric.clst.org/mystery/archives/1416<br /><br />That is, let's have each of us in our own parishes put them back int he collection plate without any money that day. That way each parish can begin to see how much support there is, and we're sending a message. Plus, it's a pretty anonymous thing, so individual people who support us but might not want to be public about it, can still make a difference in their own parish.Mary Hesshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07954022665480649924noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27612445.post-35049884749466913222010-09-22T23:44:32.178-05:002010-09-22T23:44:32.178-05:00Mm, an "unnamed donor" paid for the bish...Mm, an "unnamed donor" paid for the bishop's DVD campaign. How convenient. The church hierarchy has never been big on transparency and accountability, so we'll probably never know exactly how this deplorable crusade was funded. We just are left with why it was funded: because Catholics are yet to rid themselves of a feudal system of governance that is fixated on controlling people through its medieval teachings on sex. The straights have quietly unshackled themselves and as a result bishops and priests know full well that enforcing the teaching on contraception is a lost cause, but they're still trying to give themselves a sense of power by targeting the gays and preventing their civil marriage rights. I for one will be working to oppose such discrimination.Linda54noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27612445.post-87629008305215405022010-09-22T23:26:19.772-05:002010-09-22T23:26:19.772-05:00Thank you Ray for trying to "excuse" wha...Thank you Ray for trying to "excuse" what you assume to be my ignorance, but I didn't miss anything here. The issue in Matt 19deals with easy divorce, not same gender marriage. Those are totally separate topics. We always need to read the Sacred Scriptures in context and not insert our own meanings into them. Possibly in the "passion of the moment" that is what you actually did when you misinterpreted the primary meaning of that particular passage.<br /><br />As to who paid for the DVDs, why did the Archdiocese not suggest to this no doubt sincere but misguided private donor to redirect his or her mulitple excess dollars to the literally thousands within the Catholic community who are unemployed or underemployed in this fragile ecomony, or otherwise ask this person or persons to use their money more constructively for the good of the Church in some other way instead? <br /><br />Accepting the money for making these DVDs is criminal on their part in my view. No, Jesus wasn't wrong. But the Church was.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27612445.post-58879040703027320592010-09-22T23:15:02.767-05:002010-09-22T23:15:02.767-05:00Hi Ray,
According to Dennis McGrath, "the ch...Hi Ray,<br /><br />According to Dennis McGrath, "the church mailings were paid for with a private donation" - a donation, presumably, made to either the Archdiocese of St. Paul-Minneapolis or the MN Catholic Conference. Either way, the decision to accept and spend this money in the way that it was, was ultimately the decision of, in your words, "the Church." That is unless you're suggesting that MN Catholic Conference and/or the Archdiocese of St. Paul-Minneapolis are in the habit of allowing themselves to be dictated to by funders?<br /><br />Actually, the whole issue of funding and cost of this misguided campaign seems very murky - and thus troubling for many local Catholics. Fr instance, when asked on MPR today about the cost of producing and distributing the DVDs, Archbishop Nienstedt was unable (or unwilling) to provide an answer! For someone in his position, overseeing as he does the finances of the Archdiocese, this is both unacceptable and embarrassing. <br /><br />As for Jesus' words in both Matthew 19:3-6 and Mark 10: 2-16, I address the concerns and questions you raise <a href="http://thewildreed.blogspot.com/2009/10/liberated-to-be-together.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>.<br /><br />Peace,<br /><br />MichaelMichael J. Baylyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03087458490602152648noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27612445.post-1866516348365565212010-09-22T21:16:33.268-05:002010-09-22T21:16:33.268-05:00I suspect in the passion of the moment it is under...I suspect in the passion of the moment it is understandable that you missed the information in the Strib's article that the DVDs and mailing were not paid for by the Church.<br /><br />Did you miss this in the Bible? Matthew 19:3-6: <br /><br />3Some Pharisees came to him, and to test him they asked, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any cause?" 4He answered, "Have you not read that the one who made them at the beginning 'made them male and female,' 5 and said, 'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'? 6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate." <br /><br />Was Jesus wrong?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08332138030182107580noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27612445.post-7426975829822756292010-09-22T19:08:48.139-05:002010-09-22T19:08:48.139-05:00They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching ...They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. – Acts 2:42 <br /><br />Damn, and all this time I thought the purpose of the Church was to produce hate DVDs wasting hundreds of thousands of dollars, while pretending to be "non-partisan." Thanks God for clearing that one up.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27612445.post-19852178211573267832010-09-22T16:07:56.323-05:002010-09-22T16:07:56.323-05:00As I rewatched the DVD just a moment ago, I was st...As I rewatched the DVD just a moment ago, I was struck by the irony that John, our brother in faith, and the Archbishop of St. Paul/Minneapolis, is calling for the people of Minnesota to not let "elites" make decisions for them, yet in his own sphere of authority, there does not even exist a true representation of the people and what we think.<br /><br />I say, let's invite the people of Minnesota and around the world to call for an "amendment" of canon law and some of the out-dated practices and beliefs of the church. I'll bet the Archbishop would not like any politicians interfering within his realm of dictatorship!Lonnenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27612445.post-37885285630604626112010-09-22T07:41:52.754-05:002010-09-22T07:41:52.754-05:00HERE ARE THE COMMENTS I ADDED TO THE STARTRIB--5 y...HERE ARE THE COMMENTS I ADDED TO THE STARTRIB--5 years ago I returned to the Roman Catholic Church after 35 years away. Just this week, after struggling deeply for many months on issues such as the in-depth political pressure of the hierarc...hy on the faithful, the many seeming contradictions within the doctrinal history of a Church who claims to have "never erred on faith or morals" and knowing that, even as a celibate same sex attracted individual, I have a limited shelf life due to the prejudices that seem to be endorsed from Pope Benedict on to our own Archbishop, I finally realized I belonged in the Anglican Communion. Ironically I sent a letter to that effect and stating my reasons which should have arrived just today to the Archdiocese. I take no joy in this as I love the Church--but I love her too much to watch in horror and ever increasing anger as she pulls out all the stops to destroy the human rights of others, not just on this but many issues. Apparently "unjust dicrimination" does not include denying LGBT people the right to protection or freedom under the law. Sadly, I must go elsewhere to truly be welcomed as the child of God I am. So I go.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com