tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27612445.post8225455254116687899..comments2024-03-23T12:05:23.537-05:00Comments on The Wild Reed: Message to a Young Man of IntegrityMichael J. Baylyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03087458490602152648noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27612445.post-22271229622479226542008-06-09T12:43:00.000-05:002008-06-09T12:43:00.000-05:00Whew! I thought a miscue. I assure readers that "p...Whew! I thought a miscue. I assure readers that "pray the gay away" has not been a dominant experience I've known, although the "ex-gay" movement (with or without Evangelical continuation) was often over discontent of a perceived "gay lifestyle," and today continues only to please someone else.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27612445.post-53925074136890263272008-06-09T10:43:00.000-05:002008-06-09T10:43:00.000-05:00Okay, I see now the misunderstanding.The "Michael"...Okay, I see now the misunderstanding.<BR/><BR/>The "Michael" you're referring to, Gay Species, isn't me, but another Michael who left a comment here.<BR/><BR/>My comments always begin with "Michael J. Bayly," hyperlinked to my Blogger profile.<BR/><BR/>Hopefully the other Michael will read this and respond to your concerns and questions.<BR/><BR/>Peace,<BR/><BR/>MichaelMichael J. Baylyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03087458490602152648noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27612445.post-84964769359074457302008-06-08T22:53:00.000-05:002008-06-08T22:53:00.000-05:00Micheal,Unless your response was mispunctuated, yo...Micheal,<BR/><BR/>Unless your response was mispunctuated, you wrote:<BR/><BR/><I>This is a very powerful statement, which really resonates for anyone who happens to have a homosexual orientation. It may at times seem like an exercise in futility, to try to convince God to change our nature. Almost any gay or lesbian person would be able to identify with the experience. Why wouldn't they?</I><BR/><BR/>Now read my reply.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27612445.post-50009513020402108592008-06-08T18:35:00.000-05:002008-06-08T18:35:00.000-05:00Whoa! Hold on a minute.Where and how do I "over-ge...Whoa! Hold on a minute.<BR/><BR/>Where and how do I "over-generalize" about the experiences of gay men spending "countless, tearful hours . . . in secret trying to pray away the gay"?<BR/><BR/>They're Thom's words and they moved me. Period. Where exactly do I state (or even imply) that this is the experience of all or most gay people?<BR/><BR/>I'm sure there's some truth in your observation that "those without religious indoctrination have few issues with being homophile." Okay. But given our society and the unfortunate way religion is generally expressed and experienced within it, I would argue that the majority of gay folks have had to deal in one way or another with various levels of religious "indoctrination."<BR/><BR/>Thom's was quiet extreme, and I think it's amazing that he's come through it the way he has. But again, I'm not sure where you're seeing me imply that all gay people experience what Thom experienced and/or dealt with it the way he has.<BR/><BR/>You write: "Once accepting the fact [of being gay], I've never cried over it, prayed to be otherwise."<BR/><BR/>Well, that's my experience, too! And from what I can gather, it's Thom's as well. So I'm not sure what the issue is here. Is it that we were raised in homes and communities where religion played a role? That we had to struggle to move beyond being defined and constantly weighed down by the "crap" that these religions spout about homosexuality? Is it because I haven't <EM>completely</EM> abandoned religion and spirituality?<BR/><BR/>Maybe future installments of "In the Footsteps of Spring" will better explain where I'm coming from.<BR/><BR/>Yet even if you don't ever agree with me or understand where I'm coming from, I want to know that I welcome your comments and appreciate you sharing your perspective.<BR/><BR/>Peace,<BR/><BR/>MichaelMichael J. Baylyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03087458490602152648noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27612445.post-5652687727365725712008-06-08T17:04:00.000-05:002008-06-08T17:04:00.000-05:00Micheal,Your fallacy of over-generalization that a...Micheal,<BR/><BR/>Your fallacy of over-generalization that all men, facing their homophilia, wherein, "countless, tearful hours were spent in secret trying to pray away the gay" is simply untrue. It may be your experience. It may be an experience shared with Thom and others. But it is not an experience all homophiles experience. Not even close.<BR/><BR/>Granted, we may not understand that the "passing phase" did not pass, but once accepting the fact, I've never cried over it, prayed to be otherwise, and I can speak of other gay men who never entertained such issues, Beloved among them. <BR/><BR/>The reason <B>may</B> be that we did not owe the gods an explanation for disappointing them. My experience suggests strongly that those without religious indoctination have few issues with being homophile, but may have issues with how homophiles are maligned by the Church, the New Testament, and the Hebrew scriptures. <BR/><BR/>I know eleven of twelve gay men, the product of homophobic Jesuit education, that accepted themselves quite well, and even allowed "time" for their Traditions in their lives (one guy, would wrestle for years, solely because he put the Church's stance above himself, and insisted homophilia was wrong until the Church changed its tune, working within Dignity and frustration).<BR/><BR/>When people choose false beliefs, and then suffer from those beliefs deliberately, there must be a "payoff" in this masochistic behavior. Part of it must stem from a poor self-esteem, in which the sick sinner theme takes root, rather than self-analysis and introspection, challenging false assumptions and beliefs.<BR/><BR/>In a general observation, these stories suggest that "religion" is more noxious than helpful. Spiritualism is not vulnerable to doctrinal claims of incredible statements. Religion, which requires one's life be seen through "its" prism, rather than spiritualism, which invites the immanent into oneself, are radically opposite approaches, and perhaps explains why "ex-gay" movements still persist. Their sexuality does not "fit" religions' structure into its "truth." The facts are our judgments make true/false decisions, but the reified Truth is nowhere to be found. Only "obedience" to those who demand it, and to those who submit.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27612445.post-4827661279274976282008-06-07T01:34:00.000-05:002008-06-07T01:34:00.000-05:00Ray,The problem with the Vatican's "program" for g...Ray,<BR/><BR/>The problem with the Vatican's "program" for gay folks is that, in it, "chastity" is <EM>always</EM>and <EM>only</EM> equated with celibacy. (This is problematic for the vast majority of gay people. Also, this equating of chastity with celibacy isn't the case with heterosexuals.)<BR/><BR/>As you know, chastity and celibacy are two different things - except, in the Vatican's view, if you're gay and Catholic.<BR/><BR/>I believe it's possible for a gay person to express their sexuality in a chaste way, i.e., with purity of heart. Chastity doesn't necessarily mean a life of celibacy - either for gay or straight people.<BR/><BR/>Peace,<BR/><BR/>MichaelMichael J. Baylyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03087458490602152648noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27612445.post-26034740469783163502008-06-06T20:40:00.000-05:002008-06-06T20:40:00.000-05:00The problem in the Church is not so much that it p...<I>The problem in the Church is not so much that it preaches against homosexuality, it's that it rarely addresses it at all, certainly not in an honest manner. Our homosexual children are left on their own - not condemned, but not affirmed, embraced, or guided.</I><BR/><BR/>I might state that I don't believe that the Church's heterosexual "children" are given much guidance that they accept either.<BR/><BR/>When the Church issues its instructions to heterosexuals with respect to chastity, marriage and contraception and even abortion, for the most part, they are ignored.<BR/><BR/>The Church does have programs for homosexuals and it includes chastity. Would homosexuals be willing to accept that?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08332138030182107580noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27612445.post-23684716264169444932008-06-05T17:49:00.000-05:002008-06-05T17:49:00.000-05:00"Countless, tearful hours were spent in secret try..."Countless, tearful hours were spent in secret trying to pray away the gay" <BR/><BR/>This is a very powerful statement, which really resonates for anyone who happens to have a homosexual orientation. It may at times seem like an exercise in futility, to try to convince God to change our nature. Almost any gay or lesbian person would be able to identify with the experience. Why wouldn't they? The Church tells them that they are dis-ordered by nature. <BR/><BR/>Even if a homosexual condition is not purely genetic, such a condition forms in children well before the age of reason. This attraction is not freely chosen. Self consciousness of the condition really depends on the ability to refrain from complete repression of sexual desire. Can you believe that God requires that some people - but only some people - completely repress the gift of sexuality for the duration of their life? It is impossibly difficult for such a person to function in the world, with the advice offered by many in the Church today. It's an impossible burden for most.<BR/><BR/>The problem in the Church is not so much that it preachs against homosexuality, it's that it rarely addresses it at all, certainly not in an honest manner. Our homosexual children are left on their own - not condemned, but not affirmed, embraced, or guided. The Church is basically doing nothing to address the needs of all of it's children. Gays and lesbians are being written off today. I remember the release of the US bishops Always Our Children, and the hope that it offered, and the subsequent furor. Those of you with children - you are able to offer your straight daughters and sons open doors to worlds of opportunity, depending on your child's abilities and needs. Are you able to offer your gay and lesbian children the same open doors? Your straight daughter and son is able to freely choose a mature sex life in the context of a lifelong sanctified marriage. But your gay and lesbian child is required to face life bravely with no sexual expression whatsoever? One is required to live a life of chaste celibacy because of the way that one is wired sexually? Ironically, today, many in the Church want to preclude the possiblity of a young man or woman living a life of chaste celibacy in the consecrated religious life. It makes no sense. <BR/><BR/>I so appreciate Thom expressing his honest feelings. I will keep praying that the Lord will make clear a path for this young man, as the Church so needs him. --MichaelAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27612445.post-53293505833033925102008-06-05T14:11:00.000-05:002008-06-05T14:11:00.000-05:00" Still, it’s crap nonetheless. It’s also demeanin..." Still, it’s crap nonetheless. It’s also demeaning, disrespectful, and potentially demoralizing - and Catholics such as Tom, myself, and countless others know it. Furthermore, we have to live with the pain of this awareness everyday."<BR/><BR/>The above comments, coupled with the "countless, tearful hours" comments, raises several questions, all beginning with: <B>Why?</B> Why submit to agonizing self-torture? Why yield to "demeaning, demoralizing" institutions and beliefs? Why choose "pain?"<BR/><BR/>The overt masochistic observations are not only painful to read, but almost terrifying for their intentional masochism. We have choices, and it is biologically aberrant to choose pain willingly, knowingly, deliberately. <BR/><BR/>To seek suffering? To placate demoralization? To accept demeaning? I appreciate the candor, but do you?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27612445.post-15704841822342781472008-06-05T06:21:00.000-05:002008-06-05T06:21:00.000-05:00"Countless, tearful hours were spent in secret try..."Countless, tearful hours were spent in secret trying to “pray away the gay.” For anyone who has ever engaged in this spiritual activity, you know that it is an exercise in futility."<BR/><BR/>Countless, tearful hours spent trying to pray away anything is an exercise in futility, I would bet.<BR/><BR/>Man is a social animal. Other than a few hermits and writers, most of the advances in sanity and society came from working with family, community, church, company and other groups.<BR/><BR/>Gen 2:18 Then the LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone."Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08332138030182107580noreply@blogger.com