tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27612445.post2185918186769715300..comments2024-03-23T12:05:23.537-05:00Comments on The Wild Reed: The Cowardice of CourageMichael J. Baylyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03087458490602152648noreply@blogger.comBlogger39125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27612445.post-74097837511909770112009-09-07T15:11:04.428-05:002009-09-07T15:11:04.428-05:00Michael:
You commented: I second Kevin's exp...Michael:<br /><br />You commented: <i>I second Kevin's expression of gratitude for your honest sharing of your experiences and thoughts on this topic...</i><br /><br />Thank you, Michael. Civil discussions are more productive.<br /><br /><br />RayAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08332138030182107580noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27612445.post-62480373887767498742009-09-07T15:09:02.012-05:002009-09-07T15:09:02.012-05:00Kevin57:
You made this comment: I am going after...Kevin57:<br /><br />You made this comment: <i>I am going after the ministries (like Courage) who reference therapies that, tragically, are not only "neutral" in their effect, but downright harmful. </i><br /><br />Thank you for your nice words about my earlier comments.<br /><br />As I am neither a research scientist nor a therapist, much of what I will say here will be my beliefs. I belong to no "psychological school."<br /><br />One of the most interesting books that I have read in my life is "The Vital Balance" by Karl Menninger back in 1963. <br /><br />For me, as a non scholar, the best part of the book is the appendix where he lists the history of psychiatric classifications, beginning with the ancient Greek, Hippocrates (pp. 419-89. That history seems to be one of constant change over the years continues so to this day. <br /><br />The 20th century seems to have been one of continued change with the academics lined up behind Freud, Adler, Jung, Skinner, etc. (I admit that my formal knowledge ended with Skinner when he was at the peak of his reputation when I was in college. I understand Skinner is in eclipse these days and fierce arguments probably still are waged among the students of the other three. But I know nothing about that. Skinner was the one with whom I was most familiar because one of my friends was a huge advocate and now is a prominent professor at UCLA.<br /><br />We argued. I could not believe in Skinner's theories as a Catholic. It just didn't seem right, although I had no proof.<br /><br />Along those same lines, the psychological schools want more than anything else in the world to be real scientists. Many really believe that if they can just identify the factors of human behavior, they will be able to predict human behavior.<br /><br />Social Science, Sociology, Political Science and even Economics books are full of mathematical formulae used to "prove" academic theories on how people as individuals or groups did, do or will act. <br /><br />In 1970 at the U of Minn., it was even a requirement for students to have a year of calculus before they could be admitted to the School of Public Affairs. That has changed too, I believe.<br /><br />The American Psychological Association when it comes to deciding policy, doesn't bother often with some of these theories. They rely on votes of their membership, mostly people with PhD's whose dissertations are no longer read because they are irrelevant, to decide whether or not homosexuality is "normal" or "abnormal", whether sexual orientation may be be changed, and probably many other issues dealing with human behavior.<br /><br />As I mentioned, I am not well read in these matters.<br /><br />So what these people say about Courage and NARTH isn't particularly relevant, it would seem to me. There are others who say that Courage and NARTH are relevant. And whatever they are saying today, it will be greatly different 20 years from now.<br /><br />Rather than relying on the votes of the APA membership decided on by committee, or by the body as a whole, wouldn't it make more sense to let therapists experiment, using normal safeguards, to see how it would be possible to change sexual behavior of all kinds?<br /><br />It is obvious that some people have changed their orientation, many people have become celibate. <br /><br />It would be interesting to see an impartial study of the incidents of "harm" that you imply to determine the type and degree of harm, and to determine the origin. Was it the reparative therapy; or was it some other earlier incidents in their life?<br /><br /><b>Going back to another argument, the folks who are "Pro-Choice" when it comes to a woman's right to control her body are not "Pro-Choice" when it comes to a man's right to control his body.<br /><br />Also, no pro-abortion researcher could ever get funding to find out if there are any adverse effects because of a woman having had an abortion. And you know that too.</b>Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08332138030182107580noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27612445.post-2279331257704975982009-09-07T14:33:58.815-05:002009-09-07T14:33:58.815-05:00Actually, Ray, I didn't remind you about our p...Actually, Ray, I didn't remind you about our previous discussion about the John Jay Study so as to facilitate further discussion. I just wanted to set the record straight for others reading this thread.<br /><br />As to your initial question, <b>I would say that people get upset by the presuppositions and judgment-calls that underlie the idea that people can change their sexual orientation</b>. <br /><br />Why not encourage them to accept themselves as they are?<br /><br />I think "change therapy" is a form of cowardice. People who pursue it are running away from who it is that God made them to be.<br /><br />Growing into awareness and acceptance, not to mention holistically living out one's sexuality - gay straight, or bisexual - can be a challenging, uncomfortable, and difficult journey. For individuals, churches, and organizations to turn around and say that these very human feelings somehow signify an inherent screw-up in one's sexual orientation - and that therefore a person should seek to change their orientation - is reprehensible.<br /><br />I'm not hearing you say, Ray, that a young, self-identified straight person who is experiencing feelings of discomfort around sex should seek to change his/her orientation. Why? Because you clearly have a certain view about the homosexual orientation that automatically makes it inferior, something suspect, something that one shouldn't accept, let alone integrate into one's life. <b>It's this way of thinking that "upsets" many people</b>.<br /><br />Thankfully, however, it's a way of thinking that's increasingly being rejected by the younger generations. For my nieces and nephews and their peers, for instance, homosexuality and gay marriage just aren't the issue that they are for some older people. The world's moving forward. And so should the Church. I have no doubt it will, though probably not in my life time. Still, I'm committed to doing what I can to facilitate the change that's already underway.<br /><br />Peace,<br /><br />MichaelMichael J. Baylyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03087458490602152648noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27612445.post-9860138639834836802009-09-07T14:05:47.803-05:002009-09-07T14:05:47.803-05:00Michael:
You posted this: Ray, we’ve discussed t...Michael:<br /><br />You posted this: <i>Ray, we’ve discussed the John Jay Study in relation to this previous Wild Reed post.</i><br /><br />I'm not willing to discuss anything new until we resolve my initial question --- "Why are people greatly upset when people they don't know attempt to change sexual orientation."Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08332138030182107580noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27612445.post-67732042418253820622009-09-07T14:01:38.603-05:002009-09-07T14:01:38.603-05:00colkoch:
You commented Ray, loved your post.
Ain...colkoch:<br /><br />You commented <i>Ray, loved your post. <br />Ain't it the truth, those two love commandments </i><br /><br />Thank you. That's why Jesus call those two the Greatest Commandments. If I can't keep those two, I'm going to have a devil of a time, pun intended, with the ten given to Moses.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08332138030182107580noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27612445.post-58475338152638410382009-09-05T18:39:58.891-05:002009-09-05T18:39:58.891-05:00I read Father Grosechel's comments. I wonder ...I read Father Grosechel's comments. I wonder how much Dr. Nicolosi paid him. Did you notice how he was endorsing Dr. Nicolosi? Dr. Nicolosi doesn't have a lot of support but for some reason he is in bed with Courage. He was a guest speaker at their annual conference. I expressed my concern to Courage for allowing this. I think it is an outrage that they are promoting this man.Mareczkuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13122584421854834046noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27612445.post-71206471969966244512009-09-05T18:00:37.997-05:002009-09-05T18:00:37.997-05:00Very interesting discussion here. I have learned ...Very interesting discussion here. I have learned quite a bit. I wish that we could get through to Courage because some of the bishops that dislike gay people want to promote Courage. We have Courage in our diocese but I was never able to find out where they met or when the meetings were because the priest in charge said that it was confidential because the participants didn't want people to know who they were. The priest wouldn't give me his name and told me, "We are not a pro-homosexual organization." I felt somewhat insulted and figured out that he really didn't want to talk to me so that was it. The people at the office in New York are very nice but I wish that I could get through to them a little better.Mareczkuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13122584421854834046noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27612445.post-79390259842548566962009-09-05T00:04:08.773-05:002009-09-05T00:04:08.773-05:00Ray,
I second Kevin's expression of gratitude...Ray,<br /><br />I second Kevin's expression of gratitude for your honest sharing of your experiences and thoughts on this topic. It helps me understand where you're coming from and what has informed and shaped your perspective. Thanks for that.<br /><br />Peace,<br /><br />MichaelMichael J. Baylyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03087458490602152648noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27612445.post-341218601447966492009-09-04T22:22:26.652-05:002009-09-04T22:22:26.652-05:00Ray, we’ve discussed the John Jay Study in relatio...Ray, we’ve discussed the John Jay Study in relation to <a href="http://thewildreed.blogspot.com/2009/05/abuse-survivor-says-scapegoating-of.html" rel="nofollow">this previous <em>Wild Reed</em> post</a>.<br /><br />In short, your interpretation of the findings of the John Jay Study doesn’t jive with those of Louise Haggett’s or <a href="http://www.richardsipe.com/" rel="nofollow">Richard Sipe</a>’s. And as I’m sure you’re aware, Sipe is probably the leading expert in the studying of clergy abuse.<br /><br />Following are some excerpts from Louise Haggett’s article, “<a href="http://www.rentapriest.com/web/pdf/CLERGY_SEXUAL_ABUSE.pdf" rel="nofollow">Clergy Sexual Abuse, Mandatory Celibacy, and Homosexual Priests</a>.”<br /><br />Writes Haggett:<br /><br />”Nowhere in the John Jay College Report is it indicated that homosexuality is a factor. Conclusions drawn about homosexuality were merely commentary by clergy panel members on EWTN the day the report was made public. <b>There is no basis for the argument that homosexual priests were responsible for the majority of the abuse, and there are too many arguments against it</b>.<br /><br />“. . . The vast majority of male adolescent victims were altar servers when they encountered their priest perpetrators (Haggett 2005). Until the late 1980s, all altar servers were male. In his first clergy abuse presentation to some 300 priests at the National Federation of Priest Council, Fr. Canice Connors, head of St. Luke’s Treatment Center, told the priest audience that sexual abuse addiction was due to ‘immaturity being encouraged in seminaries. Seminarians are told to not look into a woman’s eyes – beware of [the] feminine. The feeling then becomes one of ‘if girls are off limits, maybe boys are OK’ (Connors, 1993).<br /><br />”The John Jay College Study reports the highest percentage of clergy abuse incidents occurred in 1970. 63% of the victims who responded to the Bingo study had been abused prior to 1970, a period in which Sipe concluded that only 30% of the priesthood had a homosexual orientation. I would therefore argue that <b>homosexuality was not a factor in clergy sexual abuse in the 60s, 70s or part of the 80s</b>, and John Jay College indications were that <b>the abuse slowed down beginning in the 80s when the homosexual factor may have been getting stronger</b>.<br /><br />“. . . The John Jay College Study excluded all victims above 18 years of age. 36.6% of the Bingo Report female victims were over 20 years old. Only 1.8% were adult males. <b>Had adult women been included in the John Jay College study, a different demographic pattern would have resulted</b>.<br /><br />“. . . Finally, according to Richard Sipe, ‘<b>there is not one scientific investigation that justifies a conclusion that there is a connection between orientation and sexual abuse of minors</b>.’<br /><br />“Sipe also says that: ‘<b>The Vatican’s focus on homosexual orientation is a smoke screen to cover the pervasive and greater danger of exposing the sexual behavior of clerics in general</b>.’”<br /><br />Peace,<br /><br />MichaelMichael J. Baylyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03087458490602152648noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27612445.post-78764421380125628602009-09-04T22:11:17.635-05:002009-09-04T22:11:17.635-05:00Ray,
I thank you for your candid, and brave, acts...Ray,<br /><br />I thank you for your candid, and brave, acts of self-disclosure in your last few posts. Knowing each other as human beings always facilitates dialogue.<br /><br />To respond to your inquiry as to why I would oppose homosexuals who are seeking to change their orientation, what so unnerves me about that...My answer is...<br /><br />Nothing, really. I am a bit saddened by the gay person who, in my view, is self-hating, but I would say you misunderstand my post, Ray. I am going after the ministries (like Courage) who reference therapies that, tragically, are not only "neutral" in their effect, but downright harmful. <br /><br />To continue my analogy: I would not condemn the poor soul who would seek some voodoo doctor to cure their lymphoma. The desparate soul is to be pitied. I would be "outraged," however, at any physician or medical organization that would refer a loved one of mine to such a quack.kevin57https://www.blogger.com/profile/01681985465980196347noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27612445.post-6876027477572261452009-09-04T19:16:27.008-05:002009-09-04T19:16:27.008-05:00Ray, loved your post.
Ain't it the truth, t...Ray, loved your post. <br /><br />Ain't it the truth, those two love commandments He left us are just plain sneaky traps for our egos. Just when mankind was getting the list thing down, He went and changed the whole game. <br /><br />Do you suppose He thought we might be growing up a little?colkochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27612445.post-74637042882176395832009-09-04T15:52:59.268-05:002009-09-04T15:52:59.268-05:00Michael:
You posted: ...study showing that the d...Michael:<br /><br />You posted: <i>...study showing that the degree of internalized homo-negativity (negative attitude towards homosexuality) among homosexual men is what predicts poor mental and sexual health – not the degree of homosexuality.</i><br /><br />I don't disagree that that is most certainly one of the reasons for the significant numbers of homosexual suicides and depression. <br /><br />Now we're getting somewhat afar from my knowledge.<br /><br />I would just say that if indeed that there were a high rate of suicides (and depression)among those attempting to change via "Courage" or other methods, that rate probably would have been significantly impacted by prejudice against homosexuals.<br /><br />With respect to prejudice, I would just say in answer to a question NOT asked by Kevin in an earlier comment the following.<br /><br />In my Army experience (four years in the 60s) and a few times subsequently, I have encountered some men who have used, braggingly, the expression "trolling for queers" and who described briefly the physical abuse they did to their victims.<br /><br />On every occasion, I physically felt the impact of that expression in my stomach and I to my knowledge never had a conversation with any of those individuals again.<br /><br />That is a crime, it is awful and it is inhuman!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08332138030182107580noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27612445.post-82661575767606678722009-09-04T15:38:03.598-05:002009-09-04T15:38:03.598-05:00Michael:
You posted: ...You clearly have a strong...Michael:<br /><br />You posted: <i>...You clearly have a strong opinion on homosexuality and homosexual relationships.</i><br /><br />I don't know that I have a strong view on them. I do think they are wrong.<br /><br />My strong views comes from homosexual activities that are trying to change my Church into something that they want.<br /><br />My strong views are also on the homosexual priests and bishops who have abused teen-age boys ("post-pubescent"), perhaps 82% of the cases, that have cost my Church, its parishes and parishioners billions of dollars and perpetrated untold harm upon their victims, parents and friends. Not to mention the scandal that they have created that has driven tens, perhaps hundreds of thousands, or more, away from the Church. <br /><br />See the John Jay Study.<br /><br />My strong views are on the homosexuals who invade the Cathedral of St. Paul on Pentecost Sundays, showing off their beliefs that are antithetical to the beliefs of my Church. <br /><br />Most of them probably aren't even Catholic and probably haven't seen the inside of a confession box in eons.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08332138030182107580noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27612445.post-84125969352752717192009-09-04T13:28:47.651-05:002009-09-04T13:28:47.651-05:00Colkoch
You commented: One gay client of mine pu...Colkoch<br /><br />You commented: <i>One gay client of mine put it this way: "I'm not sure I want to set my faith in Jesus up for failure." His faith, weak as you might think it is, was more important to him than his orientation. He's celibate by the way.</i><br /><br />I fail regularly. That's why I am often seen in the confession box. On occasion after only a few days.<br /><br />I don't think your client's faith is weak. It's probably just like mine.<br /><br />We are all sinners. Jesus set up His Church to help us get to heaven. He know that we are all sinners. Someplace in the Bible it says that "The just man sins seven times a day." <br /><br />When Fr. Corapi encounters braggarts who claim that they haven't sinned, he takes them through the ten commandments starting with "Thou shalt love the Lord ty God with thy whole heart, whole soul, whole mind and whole strength.<br /><br />That's sin no. one for all of us.<br /><br />I know there would be no way to get to heaven if it were not for God's Divine Mercy. The Chaplet of Divine Mercy has been a big help to me. So has the Litany of Humility, written 100 years ago or so by Cardinal Merry del Val.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08332138030182107580noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27612445.post-64382199675765259102009-09-04T13:12:02.635-05:002009-09-04T13:12:02.635-05:00Derek, I think the Roman Catholic priesthood is a ...Derek, I think the Roman Catholic priesthood is a pretty good indication of what happens when either orientation fights to minimize their sexuality. Their statistics for depression and addictive behavior is quite a bit higher than the general public. Fr. Cozzens work speaks to this very point.colkochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27612445.post-34004545603128608272009-09-04T12:55:22.780-05:002009-09-04T12:55:22.780-05:00Michael, thanks for sharing this information. I p...Michael, thanks for sharing this information. I particularly resonated with Dr. Rosser's last quote:<br /><br />"The old advice to gay men to fight, deny, or minimize their homosexuality likely only increases depression, greater isolation, and poorer sexual health. In short, viewing homosexuality as a disorder is not only inaccurate, it may be harmful as well"<br /><br />That's certainly been my experience and the experiences of gay people I know. I'd imagine it would be Ray's and Aaron's experience too if they were told and encouraged to "fight, deny, or minimize" their <em>heterosexuality</em>.<br /><br />I wonder if they would encourage people unhappy because of such pressure to try and "change" to homosexuality?Dereknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27612445.post-7138616591292421002009-09-04T12:42:01.756-05:002009-09-04T12:42:01.756-05:00Ray asked:
"Isn't it true that the CDC h...Ray asked:<br /><br />"Isn't it true that the CDC has also found that homosexuals have a high level of depression and suicide?"<br /><br />Yes, but what exactly causes these high levels? The answer, Ray, may surprise you.<br /><br />In September 2008 researchers at the University of Minnesota published a study showing that <b>the degree of internalized homo-negativity (negative attitude towards homosexuality) among homosexual men is what predicts poor mental and sexual health – not the degree of homosexuality</b>. The study appeared in the September issue of the <em>Journal of Homosexuality</em>.<br /><br />According to <a href="http://thewildreed.blogspot.com/2009/08/continuum-just-shrank.html" rel="nofollow">Simon Rosser, Ph.D.</a>, a researcher in the School of Public Health and principal investigator of the study, the results of the study helps inform the debate of whether or not being homosexual is healthy. “This study is a missing link in our understanding of the relationship between sexuality and health,” he said. “It provides new evidence that <b>negative attitudes towards homosexuality, not homosexuality itself, are associated with both poorer mental and sexual health outcomes seen in sexual minorities. Conversely, positive attitudes towards homosexuality are associated with better mental and sexual health</b>.”<br /><br />For more than 150 years, scholars and educators have debated whether homosexuality is an objective disorder or whether societal prejudice, not homosexuality, leads to the elevated rates of depression, drug use, and HIV/STD epidemics seen in studies of gay men. Rosser called this study groundbreaking because it directly tested both theories and found evidence that only one was accurate.<br /><br />“Given the debates in many religious denominations about homosexuality, and in society about homosexuals and civil rights, it’s also timely,” Rosser said. “In particular, the old advice to gay men to fight, deny, or minimize their homosexuality likely only increases depression, greater isolation, and poorer sexual health. In short, viewing homosexuality as a disorder is not only inaccurate, it may be harmful as well.” <br /><br />(NOTE: For a PDF version of this study, click <a href="http://www.cpcsm.org/Local%20PDFs/Homonegativity-and-MentalHealth_Rosser.pdf" rel="nofollow">here</a>.)Michael J. Baylyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03087458490602152648noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27612445.post-15342491189742375902009-09-04T12:23:11.479-05:002009-09-04T12:23:11.479-05:00Ray, you may not be an "expert in the field&q...Ray, you may not be an "expert in the field" of so-called reparative therapy, but you clearly have a strong opinion on homosexuality and homosexual relationships.<br /><br />Accordingly, with a little tweaking, your central question could just as well be asked of you.<br /><br />"Why are you upset when someone who you don't know and have not seen wants to engage in activities that reinforces and affirms who he/she is as a gay person? Please tell me why this is an important issue for you."<br /><br />Peace,<br /><br />MichaelMichael J. Baylyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03087458490602152648noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27612445.post-10468955122622310902009-09-04T12:16:04.412-05:002009-09-04T12:16:04.412-05:00Great post, Aaron.
I can agree with all that you ...Great post, Aaron.<br /><br />I can agree with all that you said. It's much better to be concise, but I've lived long enough that I felt my history might be of some interest.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08332138030182107580noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27612445.post-50650036972404275202009-09-04T12:11:47.792-05:002009-09-04T12:11:47.792-05:00[continued from previous comment]
Kevin
3. Have ...[continued from previous comment]<br /><br />Kevin<br /><br /><i>3. Have you ever sat down and just talked to a gay person, no agenda, no judgments, just an interest in knowing their experience?</i><br /><br />In the 80's I was involved in commercial printing sales and one of my company's biggest accounts was in San Francisco. One of their main buyers was a homosexual in an active relationship with one man. <br /><br />We talked on the phone almost every day at times and I probably visited him in San Francisco four or five times. One time he and his partner wanted to take me to what they said was the "hottest gay bar" in San Francisco for a drink. This was at the height of the initial AIDS epidemic when the SF papers had two obituary pages, one devoted just to AIDS deaths.<br /><br />Actually, I found it to be rather boring other than in retrospect there were no women there. A few children with their fathers. It might have been a sports bar, but there were no games on the TV.<br /><br />Finally I got word that my contact has lost his job in a downsizing of the company and I ultimately flew out to say goodbye and meet his replacement.<br /><br />As we said goodbye, rather than shake hands, he grabbed me and gave me a big smackeroo, right on the lips. Needless to say, I was rather stunned. But I didn't say anything or make any negative reaction.<br /><br />My main thought was "Did we exchange any fluids?" We didn't.<br /><br />I didn't feel threatened. At one time in my life I probably would have been. But long ago I met a guy who worked at a "large local department store", as the euphemism goes, here in the Twin Cities and he related a story of how he had attended the book signing of a homosexual football player, the first to "come out." He laughed and said, "Every queen in town was there."<br /><br />I asked him "Didn't you feel threatened?" He responded, "Why should I? When you are certain of your own sexuality, how could they be a threat?" I am certain of my own sexuality.<br /><br /><br />Back to the original question, Kevin. Why is it upsetting when someone you don't know or have never seen at his own expense attempts to change his sexual orientation? Where is the threat to you?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08332138030182107580noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27612445.post-46588524241043407272009-09-04T12:10:57.640-05:002009-09-04T12:10:57.640-05:00Kevin 57.
1. Cowardice is evidenced when the trut...Kevin 57.<br /><br /><i>1. Cowardice is evidenced when the truth hits you in the face and you refuse, due to hubris usually, to alter your approach and opinion. </i><br /><br />Well, as Pontius once said, "What is truth? Progressives know as much as anybody about relativism of their concepts of the truths of the Catholic Church.<br /><br />Do you get upset when the Flat Earth Society and other similar crackbook groups hold their annual conventions? Or more seriously, when homeopathists and astrologers meet?<br /><br />But you do seem to get very upset when homosexuals express dissatisfaction with their lifestyle and want to change. <br /><br />You don't get upset when drug addicts, smokers or alcoholics try to quit, do you? That is also very difficult and many are not able to quit. Is it foolish for them to try?<br /><br /><i>2. I'm outraged because, as the APA states, reparative therapy can and does lead--at least at times--to depression and suicide.</i><br /><br />Isn't it true that the CDC has also found that homosexuals have a high level of depression and suicide?<br /><br />---<br /><br /><i>1. Do you love homosexuals?</i><br /><br />That is an interesting question. <br /><br />For much of my life I struggled with the Second Great Commandment "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself."<br /><br />I wasn't sure that I loved myself. How could I love my neighbor? Not that many years ago I truly began to realize that Jesus did love me and if He loved me, I must be lovable.<br /><br />That's probably a major reason why I never married.<br /><br />Even though I knew that I loved my Mom, I had an extremely difficult time saying that to her. When I finally did, and I was over 50 at the time, her response was "Well, one assumes certain things." Our family just wasn't very demonstrative in that way. And my Mom was a virtual saint, the most tolerant and understanding and non-judgmental person I have ever met.<br /><br />So, the answer to your question is: "Yes, I love homosexuals as God's creations and I have a difficult time saying that to them and to everybody else." <br /><br /><i>2. Do you like homosexuals?</i><br /><br />See my first answer. But I haven't had many close contacts with them. See my next answer.<br /><br />[out of space; see my next comment]Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08332138030182107580noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27612445.post-44475127686962765322009-09-04T11:29:11.863-05:002009-09-04T11:29:11.863-05:00William:
You posted this: In my experience, peop...William:<br /><br />You posted this: <i>In my experience, people who employ the tired old "liberals-as-intolerant" meme are not in the least interested in real discussion or in dealing with intolerance.<br /><br />They're interested only in discrediting and slamming those who challenge them to think. </i><br /><br />You are changing the subject again, William.<br /><br />I don't believe that I have given my opinion at all. I am not at all an expert in the field. I have emphasized my questions.<br /><br />And the main question is: "Why are you, or particularly Howe upset when someone who you don't know and have not seen wants to engage in activities at his own expense that will attempt to change his lifestyle? Please tell me why this is an important issue for you.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08332138030182107580noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27612445.post-56187524313101645812009-09-03T18:02:56.600-05:002009-09-03T18:02:56.600-05:00Hi Ray,
I deleted that comment as I didn't th...Hi Ray,<br /><br />I deleted that comment as I didn't think someone else should be speaking for you.<br /><br />Peace,<br /><br />MichaelMichael J. Baylyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03087458490602152648noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27612445.post-75729891641619511172009-09-03T17:00:24.822-05:002009-09-03T17:00:24.822-05:00Today has been a very busy day for me, and so will...Today has been a very busy day for me, and so will be tonight. <br /><br />I haven't read any comments yet other than my enthusiastic "social secretary's" support note.<br /><br />I'll be able to start answering about noon tomorrow, I would think.<br /><br />RayAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08332138030182107580noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27612445.post-11554432918484223942009-09-03T16:51:31.067-05:002009-09-03T16:51:31.067-05:00Aaron,
"My mindset?" Do you claim to k...Aaron,<br /><br />"My mindset?" Do you claim to know my mind, Aaron? And what precisely is in my mind that the truth of the Church contradicts? My post asserted that reparative therapy should not be promoted by Catholic agencies that exist to minister to homosexuals. Unless I missed something, the magisterium of the Church has never recommended, let alone, mandated reparative therapy. In fact, the little teaching there is on the topic from the Catechism itself is that psychologically, homosexuality has proven to be very difficult to analyze etiologically.kevin57https://www.blogger.com/profile/01681985465980196347noreply@blogger.com