tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27612445.post3388396986323248494..comments2024-03-23T12:05:23.537-05:00Comments on The Wild Reed: In a Right Gay Tizzy: The Catholic Hierarchy's War on GaysMichael J. Baylyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03087458490602152648noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27612445.post-12088715407409221332011-12-04T13:20:36.665-06:002011-12-04T13:20:36.665-06:00from Chris Morley to Erica
I would have responded...from Chris Morley to Erica<br /><br />I would have responded more directly at Huffington Post but I disagree with their log-in requirements.<br /><br />William D Lindsey, who's also responded here, is a respected expert and has also commented on his own blog http://bilgrimage.blogspot.com/ . He agrees with me that the stepped up attacks on gay people aren't intended to drive gay men into the priesthood, which was the thrust of your article.<br /><br />There are a range of inter-acting factors, including celibacy, that have had the unintended consequence of increasing the proportion of gay men in the priesthood.<br /><br />My point, dramatised somewhat by the phrase 'a version of conspiracy theory', was that there are other more plausible explanations for the Church's anti-gay campaigning, than to maintain the flow of gay priests, which is how I understood your argument. <br />You said in your blog: <br />"Today, the entire hierarchy of the Catholic Church is rooted in the stigmatization of homosexuality coupled with the celibacy of priests driving young, gay men to enter and operate their organization." <br />And, regarding options <br />"Try to maintain the status quo, dig in their heals and stop the progress of history. Try to thwart any attempts to raise the social acceptability of homosexuality and give young gay men other options. Fight like hell to maximize the social stigma that drives gay men into the priesthood to keep their church alive. This appears to be the choice they have made."<br /><br />I now understand you see the effect of requiring celibacy as a pivotal factor and I agree an unintended consequence of the celibacy requirement is to boost the percentage of gay priests. <br /><br />I don't believe there is evidence, even in the USA, that the majority of priests are gay, nor for your claim that the homophobic resistance by the Church is mainly led by gay men. <br /><br />Writing as someone from the UK, you will understand that people outside the USA are sensitive to suggestions that the USA experience is somehow representative of global Catholicism.<br /><br />Thanks for making the interesting American Civil War analogy, but my understanding was that the Civil War was based on Lincoln / Unionist resistance to any attempt to allow slavery to spread beyond the Confederacy into the developing Western frontier, because this would make free men's labour costs uncompetitive on the frontier and expand slavery across the entire West. <br />I do understand the Confederacy fought to retain slavery because this made cotton production so lucrative, but it was Lincoln who declared war.<br /><br />There was an excellent documentary last week on BBC TV - quick you may be able to watch it on the catchup BBC i-Player here http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00y5kdx<br />I'm from the city of Manchester, the global centre of cotton cloth production during the industrial revolution, and as a city our cotton mill workers were solid anti-slavery and pro-Unionist allies in the Civil War, at the cost of their own severe unemployment, and we are proud to have a statue of Lincoln close to our city's Town Hall.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27612445.post-2522423053603558522011-11-09T19:58:34.775-06:002011-11-09T19:58:34.775-06:00Chris, I am the author of the original blog in thi...Chris, I am the author of the original blog in this discussion. I made the potential mistake of Googling myself and stumbling on this site. I'm frankly surprised at how far this simple blog post has traveled. I'm also surprised that I haven't seen more responses like yours. I assumed my comments would be ripe for criticism, especially since I am not Catholic and all of my observations and conclusions are derived from afar. I would like to respond to a couple of things about your post.<br /><br />My point is that the celibacy of priests creates as social filter that makes the priesthood much more attractive to gay men than to straight men. This is not to imply that it drives all gay men, or even a majority of gay men, into the priesthood. Nor does it mean that no straight men will enter the priesthood either. It simply creates a far different demographic mix than you find in the general population. You only need this filter to in the end bring in more gay men than straight, or even a very large minority, for the impact in the church to be substantial.<br /><br />"Conspiracy" is perhaps in a stretch technically accurate, but a bit too strong of a term. They are not plotting to create a system that drives young gay men into the priesthood. That system was created many centuries ago when the church committed to clerical celibacy. The Church hierarchy today just has to live with it. They are not plotting to create a new system, but rather fighting to preserve an old one. In any time of change, there will be those who don’t want change to happen and will fight to keep it from happening. The entire Civil War was an attempt by the southern states to preserve the lives they built on the incredibly lucrative cultivation of cotton that demanded massive amounts of cheap labor. They built their world on slavery, and attitudes across the western world were turning against the practice. Basically, the same sort of thing is happening today for the Catholic Church. Celibacy has inadvertently caused them to build their church on homosexuality, and changing cultural attitudes are eroding away at the system that has always made it all work. It’s not a conspiracy to drive gay men into the priesthood. It is a desperate attempt, just like the Civil War, to stop change from happening. This is just what people do when they feel their world is threatened.<br /><br />The other possible motivations for the clergy’s extreme aggression on gay issues may indeed play into it. However, I still hold to my assertion in my blog that it would be naïve to think that their actions are not affected by the fact that it is mostly gay men doing it. My best theory, as an outside observer, is that the intensity of their actions are a sign of desperation. That desperation I believe is driven by their responsibility to preserve the Catholic Church, a desire to preserve the lives and careers they have built for themselves, and a profound frustration over not being able to stop the tide of cultural change. They behave like desperate men, I submit, because that’s exactly what they are.Erica Kepplernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27612445.post-62330677845656700792011-11-04T21:18:52.402-05:002011-11-04T21:18:52.402-05:00It is interesting that the priesthood is a refuge ...It is interesting that the priesthood is a refuge for gay men and they were surely welcomed. But what about the current dictate from Rome that gay men are NOT welcome in the priesthood? The welcome mat has been pulled away. How stupid is that? They are really slitting their throats on that one.Mareczkuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13122584421854834046noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27612445.post-11783846736437506562011-11-03T14:58:54.940-05:002011-11-03T14:58:54.940-05:00Michael, I'm just now seeing your posting, aft...Michael, I'm just now seeing your posting, after I had mentioned Keppler's article in a posting of my own earlier today (and tomorrow, I'll post something pointing readers to your piece here).<br /><br />My own thinking about the fear underlying the stepped-up attack on gays, insofar as it relates to the priesthood: I'm not convinced it's designed to drive gay Catholics into the priesthood. I know very few self-accepting gay Catholics who'd even give any thought to a clerical vocation anymore.<br /><br />I suspect the real fear of the hierarchy is that if homosexuality becomes socially acceptable, more and more priests would come out of the closet, and would press for the right to have open, partnered relationships. And then the world would know how prevalent homosexuality is in the priesthood--and legal and financial complications might also then ensue for priests in partnered relationships, which would obligate the church. I honestly think it's the legal-financial things the hierarchy fears above all!William D. Lindseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07246026074693891965noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27612445.post-55367788110615213512011-11-02T12:48:11.166-05:002011-11-02T12:48:11.166-05:00from Chris Morley
I'm not at all convinced. W...from Chris Morley<br /><br />I'm not at all convinced. We don't need a version of conspiracy theory to explain the hierarchy's political anti-gay campaigning, when cock-ups mean other causes are more plausible. <br />The options for gay catholic men are not as limited as Erica paints them. Firstly only a minority of catholic gay men end up in seminaries and the priesthood. I've met a good number of lay gay catholics. <br />In the 1960s I chose the priesthood path. However I left the junior seminary because I realised the church's anti-gay teaching was toxic and wrong. I've met others with similar histories. Some chose to be lay catholics exercising their right to follow their conscience, but many felt so rejected we left the church. <br />It wasn't then and isn't now a stark choice between priesthood or excommunication, a sham marriage, a life alone, and leaving your home and community. It's not easy growing up catholic and gay but most of us manage to become fulfilled and contented adults, catholic or otherwise.<br /><br />We mustn't ignore the long tradition and evidence for heterosexual clerical relationships and fatherhood. Many priests have left in recent decades because of this but this attracts far less media attention because heterosexual relationships are seen as normal. Maintaining clerical celibacy and meeting the strict chastity expectations are problematic for most clergy, whether heterosexual or gay. <br /><br />More likely explanations of the hierarchy's political campaigning against gay marriage are <br />* internalised homophobia among some clergy (heterosexual and gay),<br />* as a media diversion from clergy paedophilia, abuse and cover-ups, <br />* flaunting of the church's strict teachings on homosexuality, and <br />* having a hierarchy shaped and intimidated by an authoritarian and conservative Rome. <br /><br />Positing a gay clerical 'mafia' which is attempting to use anti-gay rhetoric and political campaigning to keep feeding the ranks of the priesthood with fresh gay recruits is a conspiracy that seems far-fetched and unnecessary.<br />Rome is simply stuck in a deeply traditionalist groove. It's in reactive lockdown mode because the conservative tendency in the church panicked after Vatican Council II stirred up liberalisation and change in the 1960s. Most people raised catholic have been voting with their feet for decades and many of those who have stayed exercise their freedom of conscience in sexual matters. Most catholics are simply not bothered by the prospect of gay marriage and equality and many would positively welcome these. <br />While the church persists in punishing debate and dissent even about celibacy, it is hard to see a route to any official change in its response to gay sexuality, clerical or otherwise.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com