tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27612445.post563511812724396302..comments2024-03-23T12:05:23.537-05:00Comments on The Wild Reed: Preparing to Claim Our Place at the TableMichael J. Baylyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03087458490602152648noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27612445.post-21301284437785689592009-06-23T18:24:31.744-05:002009-06-23T18:24:31.744-05:00Paula
My issue is that it's often almost too ...Paula<br /><br />My issue is that it's often almost too easy to toggle the Catholic pontificating switch. That is, instead of offering particular truths from experience, to be considered inductively, Catholic have an almost genetic pre-disposition to resist staying in that mode and want to flip immediately to deductive principles that are binding universally. This is just as true of us progressives on our justice issues as the bishops on their obedience issues, just in different ways - in the end, both can converge in the realm of moralism. And that virtually guarantees a stillborn conversation. It's more radical, I propose, to resist that temptation to say that the truth [insert first person singular or plural as one likes] discern is a truth that ought to bind [insert second or third person singular or plural as one likes]. <br /><br />And one might wonder why this is so when it was not so with the issue of racial civil rights, the model of which is also appealing. Partly this is because the issue of racial discrimination and oppression was predominantly a civic conversation based on civil law and the failures to live up to the post-Civil War covenant. This conversation, however, is more intramural on Church turf, and the discerning of consensus around co-existing inductive and deductive truths is not something that will succeed if anathemas from bishops are met with what appear to be counter-anathemas (even if not worded as such) from segments of the faithful.<br /><br />For example, what would it be like if a consensus approached to develop "magisterial" teaching on homosexual activity to place greater weight on the internal forum and subjective circumstances of people with so-called "deep seated homosexual tendencies" who only engage in that activity with permanent monogamous relationships? (This might be akin to the development of the teaching on usury, where the definition of usury evolved to take into account historical developments that rendered the previous definition overbroad.) <br /><br />I am not recommending that approach, but as things stand it would not shock me if that was a result in 100 years time.<br /><br />The deeper, less discussed, issue is that the morality of sexual acts is almost uniquely evaluated in exclusively objective terms as compared to other moral actions. (I could offer speculations about why that is so, but that's going far afield here.) People who really want to grapple with this issue at the level of bishops are going to have to be prepared to engage with the systematic philosophical issue that raises (I readily confess it's above my pay grade, but I am well aware it looms out there like the underside of the tip of the iceberg).Liamnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27612445.post-43005212768311256552009-06-23T13:33:02.248-05:002009-06-23T13:33:02.248-05:00Liam, I for one have no issue with "certainty...Liam, I for one have no issue with "certainty" if it's based on the reality of people's lives. Yet I wonder what the certainty of the hierarchy's teaching on, say, homosexuality is based upon. Definitely not the lives of the gay people I know. The type of exploration and discussion that's taking place in the church of the Twin Cities area is long overdue. It should be being initiated by our so-called leaders. In reality, I think what this lay coalition is doing is modeling a model of healthy leadership to the hierarchy. Let's hope they're watching and taking note.Donnanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27612445.post-22793059306775525842009-06-23T13:24:20.091-05:002009-06-23T13:24:20.091-05:00I believe the Catholic Church has always taught ho...I believe the Catholic Church has always taught homophilia is a grave moral disorder. Always. NT, Didache, and for 2,000 years. If anyone thinks the church hierarchy of self-loathing androphiles is going to forfeit the power and clandestine relations, perhaps the Prayer of Saint Francis is not heard, nor understood.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27612445.post-55848507506786222572009-06-23T04:51:39.827-05:002009-06-23T04:51:39.827-05:00Paula
I did not say I was against that. But it sh...Paula<br /><br />I did not say I was against that. But it should be done in a way that transparently incorporates a sense of epistemological and rhetorical limits. One of the sweeter temptations for Catholic progressives is aping the certainty of the bishops and presenting our conclusions as if they bind (or ought to bind) others.Liamnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27612445.post-8642025961400870892009-06-22T23:15:06.805-05:002009-06-22T23:15:06.805-05:00Liam, what do you mean by the question: What if we...Liam, what do you mean by the question: What if we are wrong? <br /><br />Wrong about what? Wrong to study a theology of human sexuality? Wrong to question church authority? <br /><br />Certainly everyone can be wrong, but the only way to know it is to keep learning, thinking, and reasoning together. Why are you against that?Paulanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27612445.post-48123943987605179602009-06-22T17:09:20.259-05:002009-06-22T17:09:20.259-05:00Canon 439 treats councils at the national level; C...Canon 439 treats councils at the national level; Canon 440 treats provincial councils at the level of metropolitan provinces. Diocesan councils are not the same - they refer to a kind of curial arm not a deliberative body summoned on occasion.Liamnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27612445.post-6553426677858633452009-06-22T14:42:49.121-05:002009-06-22T14:42:49.121-05:00I believe that Canon Law recommends the calling of...I believe that Canon Law recommends the calling of Synods on diocesan and even national levels. It is one way to respect the priesthood of all the laity. Interestingly, very few dioceses have held a synod. I wonder why.kevin57https://www.blogger.com/profile/01681985465980196347noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27612445.post-85630156466631808852009-06-22T07:34:46.763-05:002009-06-22T07:34:46.763-05:00One question that I believe merits inclusion in yo...One question that I believe merits inclusion in your reflections, deliberations and recommendations: what if we are wrong? Or, if your paradigm is that no one gets to be wrong (in which case, that would also mean the current authority-wielders in the Church, right?), then what are our limiting assumptions, beliefs and values?<br /><br />If we wish the bishops to ask these questions of themselves, we must model it first for them....Liamnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27612445.post-59422261374612586932009-06-22T05:01:00.238-05:002009-06-22T05:01:00.238-05:00Reading this gives me so much hope! Prayers for yo...Reading this gives me so much hope! Prayers for your journey and thanks for all that you do.Franhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07181529277715646835noreply@blogger.com